What is the origin of the term “cone of shame”?
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What is the first known use of the term "cone of shame"?
This refers to the plastic cone affixed around dog's necks when they have had a procedure or medical condition.
Wikipedia fails to shed any light and limits itself to saying
Also known as an Elizabethan collar, E-Collar, Buster collar or pet cone, (sometimes humorously called a pet lamp-shade, pet radar dish, dog-saver, or cone of shame)
Image source
etymology phrase-origin
edited Nov 17 '18 at 18:44
Mari-Lou A
62.7k57226466
asked Nov 16 '18 at 16:42
WakeDemons3WakeDemons3
1986
add a comment |
What is the first known use of the term "cone of shame"?
This refers to the plastic cone affixed around dog's necks when they have had a procedure or medical condition.
Wikipedia fails to shed any light and limits itself to saying
Also known as an Elizabethan collar, E-Collar, Buster collar or pet cone, (sometimes humorously called a pet lamp-shade, pet radar dish, dog-saver, or cone of shame)
Image source
etymology phrase-origin
edited Nov 17 '18 at 18:44
Mari-Lou A
62.7k57226466
asked Nov 16 '18 at 16:42
WakeDemons3WakeDemons3
1986
Not just for dogs BTW, almost any mammal might wear one. One of my cats has had to wear one on three occasions, and I've seen them on rabbits, guinea pigs, and ferrets too (though it doesn't work very well for ferrets).
– Austin Hemmelgarn
Nov 16 '18 at 18:44
@DanBron et al.: Thank you for your effort. Please avoid discussion, debate, or giving answers in comments. The comment thread is reserved for helping to improve the post: friendly clarifying questions, suggestions for improving the question, relevant but transient information, and explanations of your actions. A welcoming place for discussion of posts (or anything else) is our English Language & Usage Chat.
– MetaEd♦
Nov 17 '18 at 18:16
1
@MetaEd No problem deleting comments. And I know you were only CVer #5, but could you and the other CVers consider the "research" requirement for this particular Q? Because looking up early attestations is a specialist task, and outside of including "I found this in Up! in 2009!", which doesn't answer the Q, Id on't know what other research we could have expected of the OP.
– Dan Bron
Nov 17 '18 at 18:18
1
@DanBron I take your point. SE requires that the asker make a substantial effort to find an answer and share the results. As you point out, sometimes that's going to be a fruitless effort. But a big part of the rationale is to weed out questions that are "just mindless social fun", also expressed in the help center as "you should only ask practical, answerable questions based on actual problems that you face." A substantial research effort is helpful to people trying to answer the question, but it's also a practical demonstration that the asker is committed to the question.
– MetaEd♦
Nov 17 '18 at 18:34
1
@DanBron In this question I don't even see that the asker tried a Google search and reported the results. Surely we can reasonably expect that much prior effort.
– MetaEd♦
Nov 17 '18 at 18:35
add a comment |
What is the first known use of the term "cone of shame"?
This refers to the plastic cone affixed around dog's necks when they have had a procedure or medical condition.
Wikipedia fails to shed any light and limits itself to saying
Also known as an Elizabethan collar, E-Collar, Buster collar or pet cone, (sometimes humorously called a pet lamp-shade, pet radar dish, dog-saver, or cone of shame)
Image source
etymology phrase-origin
edited Nov 17 '18 at 18:44
Mari-Lou A
62.7k57226466
asked Nov 16 '18 at 16:42
WakeDemons3WakeDemons3
1986
What is the first known use of the term "cone of shame"?
This refers to the plastic cone affixed around dog's necks when they have had a procedure or medical condition.
Wikipedia fails to shed any light and limits itself to saying
Also known as an Elizabethan collar, E-Collar, Buster collar or pet cone, (sometimes humorously called a pet lamp-shade, pet radar dish, dog-saver, or cone of shame)
Image source
etymology phrase-origin
etymology phrase-origin
edited Nov 17 '18 at 18:44
Mari-Lou A
62.7k57226466
asked Nov 16 '18 at 16:42
WakeDemons3WakeDemons3
1986
edited Nov 17 '18 at 18:44
Mari-Lou A
62.7k57226466
asked Nov 16 '18 at 16:42
WakeDemons3WakeDemons3
1986
edited Nov 17 '18 at 18:44
Mari-Lou A
62.7k57226466
edited Nov 17 '18 at 18:44
Mari-Lou A
62.7k57226466
edited Nov 17 '18 at 18:44
Mari-Lou A
62.7k57226466
62.7k57226466
asked Nov 16 '18 at 16:42
WakeDemons3WakeDemons3
1986
asked Nov 16 '18 at 16:42
WakeDemons3WakeDemons3
1986
asked Nov 16 '18 at 16:42
WakeDemons3WakeDemons3
1986
1986
Not just for dogs BTW, almost any mammal might wear one. One of my cats has had to wear one on three occasions, and I've seen them on rabbits, guinea pigs, and ferrets too (though it doesn't work very well for ferrets).
– Austin Hemmelgarn
Nov 16 '18 at 18:44
@DanBron et al.: Thank you for your effort. Please avoid discussion, debate, or giving answers in comments. The comment thread is reserved for helping to improve the post: friendly clarifying questions, suggestions for improving the question, relevant but transient information, and explanations of your actions. A welcoming place for discussion of posts (or anything else) is our English Language & Usage Chat.
– MetaEd♦
Nov 17 '18 at 18:16
1
@MetaEd No problem deleting comments. And I know you were only CVer #5, but could you and the other CVers consider the "research" requirement for this particular Q? Because looking up early attestations is a specialist task, and outside of including "I found this in Up! in 2009!", which doesn't answer the Q, Id on't know what other research we could have expected of the OP.
– Dan Bron
Nov 17 '18 at 18:18
1
@DanBron I take your point. SE requires that the asker make a substantial effort to find an answer and share the results. As you point out, sometimes that's going to be a fruitless effort. But a big part of the rationale is to weed out questions that are "just mindless social fun", also expressed in the help center as "you should only ask practical, answerable questions based on actual problems that you face." A substantial research effort is helpful to people trying to answer the question, but it's also a practical demonstration that the asker is committed to the question.
– MetaEd♦
Nov 17 '18 at 18:34
1
@DanBron In this question I don't even see that the asker tried a Google search and reported the results. Surely we can reasonably expect that much prior effort.
– MetaEd♦
Nov 17 '18 at 18:35
add a comment |
Not just for dogs BTW, almost any mammal might wear one. One of my cats has had to wear one on three occasions, and I've seen them on rabbits, guinea pigs, and ferrets too (though it doesn't work very well for ferrets).
– Austin Hemmelgarn
Nov 16 '18 at 18:44
@DanBron et al.: Thank you for your effort. Please avoid discussion, debate, or giving answers in comments. The comment thread is reserved for helping to improve the post: friendly clarifying questions, suggestions for improving the question, relevant but transient information, and explanations of your actions. A welcoming place for discussion of posts (or anything else) is our English Language & Usage Chat.
– MetaEd♦
Nov 17 '18 at 18:16
1
@MetaEd No problem deleting comments. And I know you were only CVer #5, but could you and the other CVers consider the "research" requirement for this particular Q? Because looking up early attestations is a specialist task, and outside of including "I found this in Up! in 2009!", which doesn't answer the Q, Id on't know what other research we could have expected of the OP.
– Dan Bron
Nov 17 '18 at 18:18
1
@DanBron I take your point. SE requires that the asker make a substantial effort to find an answer and share the results. As you point out, sometimes that's going to be a fruitless effort. But a big part of the rationale is to weed out questions that are "just mindless social fun", also expressed in the help center as "you should only ask practical, answerable questions based on actual problems that you face." A substantial research effort is helpful to people trying to answer the question, but it's also a practical demonstration that the asker is committed to the question.
– MetaEd♦
Nov 17 '18 at 18:34
1
@DanBron In this question I don't even see that the asker tried a Google search and reported the results. Surely we can reasonably expect that much prior effort.
– MetaEd♦
Nov 17 '18 at 18:35
Not just for dogs BTW, almost any mammal might wear one. One of my cats has had to wear one on three occasions, and I've seen them on rabbits, guinea pigs, and ferrets too (though it doesn't work very well for ferrets).
– Austin Hemmelgarn
Nov 16 '18 at 18:44
Not just for dogs BTW, almost any mammal might wear one. One of my cats has had to wear one on three occasions, and I've seen them on rabbits, guinea pigs, and ferrets too (though it doesn't work very well for ferrets).
– Austin Hemmelgarn
Nov 16 '18 at 18:44
@DanBron et al.: Thank you for your effort. Please avoid discussion, debate, or giving answers in comments. The comment thread is reserved for helping to improve the post: friendly clarifying questions, suggestions for improving the question, relevant but transient information, and explanations of your actions. A welcoming place for discussion of posts (or anything else) is our English Language & Usage Chat.
– MetaEd♦
Nov 17 '18 at 18:16
@DanBron et al.: Thank you for your effort. Please avoid discussion, debate, or giving answers in comments. The comment thread is reserved for helping to improve the post: friendly clarifying questions, suggestions for improving the question, relevant but transient information, and explanations of your actions. A welcoming place for discussion of posts (or anything else) is our English Language & Usage Chat.
– MetaEd♦
Nov 17 '18 at 18:16
1
1
@MetaEd No problem deleting comments. And I know you were only CVer #5, but could you and the other CVers consider the "research" requirement for this particular Q? Because looking up early attestations is a specialist task, and outside of including "I found this in Up! in 2009!", which doesn't answer the Q, Id on't know what other research we could have expected of the OP.
– Dan Bron
Nov 17 '18 at 18:18
@MetaEd No problem deleting comments. And I know you were only CVer #5, but could you and the other CVers consider the "research" requirement for this particular Q? Because looking up early attestations is a specialist task, and outside of including "I found this in Up! in 2009!", which doesn't answer the Q, Id on't know what other research we could have expected of the OP.
– Dan Bron
Nov 17 '18 at 18:18
1
1
@DanBron I take your point. SE requires that the asker make a substantial effort to find an answer and share the results. As you point out, sometimes that's going to be a fruitless effort. But a big part of the rationale is to weed out questions that are "just mindless social fun", also expressed in the help center as "you should only ask practical, answerable questions based on actual problems that you face." A substantial research effort is helpful to people trying to answer the question, but it's also a practical demonstration that the asker is committed to the question.
– MetaEd♦
Nov 17 '18 at 18:34
@DanBron I take your point. SE requires that the asker make a substantial effort to find an answer and share the results. As you point out, sometimes that's going to be a fruitless effort. But a big part of the rationale is to weed out questions that are "just mindless social fun", also expressed in the help center as "you should only ask practical, answerable questions based on actual problems that you face." A substantial research effort is helpful to people trying to answer the question, but it's also a practical demonstration that the asker is committed to the question.
– MetaEd♦
Nov 17 '18 at 18:34
1
1
@DanBron In this question I don't even see that the asker tried a Google search and reported the results. Surely we can reasonably expect that much prior effort.
– MetaEd♦
Nov 17 '18 at 18:35
@DanBron In this question I don't even see that the asker tried a Google search and reported the results. Surely we can reasonably expect that much prior effort.
– MetaEd♦
Nov 17 '18 at 18:35
add a comment |
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
I found a reference that predates the Up movie by a good eight years, although I'm sure there must be older usages out there somewhere.
In a 2001 Usenet post to the alt.fashion newsgroup, user Michele317 says:
on a fashion note, he's
refusing to wear what the vet calls an 'elizabethan collar' and what i call
'the cone of shame': that plastic lampshade thing. i took him to the vet
yesterday and found out his runny eye was due to a tiny scratch in his cornea.
i decorated the cone with stickers, and removed the gauze tie and replaced it
with a jaunty ribbon, but all to no avail.
and a massive thanks to everyone who told me dog accessory websites... so much
cute stuff out there!
answered Nov 16 '18 at 17:07
shoovershoover
1,386918
add a comment |
Cone of shame goes back a ways. Cone of shame is a regional vernacular, which means it's a term not commonly used outside a particular area. I know it had been used around where i live since the 90s. These terms can go national or international through proper exposure though and they stop being regional and become common slang. CoS is similar to Trash Panda which wasn't widely used until recently, TP became popular because of the internet though where as CoS was made popular because of a movie.
answered Jan 12 at 21:05
Mark GoyetteMark Goyette
111
6
This answer would be far more useful if the particular area was identified.
– Andrew Leach♦
Jan 12 at 21:22
add a comment |
According to wikipedia and knowyoumeme.com, the term was first used in the movie "up."
Wikipedia:
The 2009 animated film Up coined the colloquial name "cone of shame"
for the collars, which feature as a minor plot point.
And knowyourmeme.com:
The Cone of Shame is a meme that originates from the 2009 Pixar movie
UP. In it, a golden retriever by the name of Dug is placed in a
medical device called an Elizabethian Collar as a punishment by his
pack.
answered Nov 16 '18 at 16:55
drewhartdrewhart
2,900717
Yep, I was remembering it from a movie, and "Up" was likely the one. (And, of course, "cone of silence" comes from the TV show "Get Smart".)
– Hot Licks
Nov 16 '18 at 16:57
The Wikipedia reference is no longer correct, as that particular sentence was deleted from the page the same day this answer was posted due to its inaccuracy.
– Chappo
Jan 12 at 21:48
add a comment |
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3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
I found a reference that predates the Up movie by a good eight years, although I'm sure there must be older usages out there somewhere.
In a 2001 Usenet post to the alt.fashion newsgroup, user Michele317 says:
on a fashion note, he's
refusing to wear what the vet calls an 'elizabethan collar' and what i call
'the cone of shame': that plastic lampshade thing. i took him to the vet
yesterday and found out his runny eye was due to a tiny scratch in his cornea.
i decorated the cone with stickers, and removed the gauze tie and replaced it
with a jaunty ribbon, but all to no avail.
and a massive thanks to everyone who told me dog accessory websites... so much
cute stuff out there!
answered Nov 16 '18 at 17:07
shoovershoover
1,386918
add a comment |
I found a reference that predates the Up movie by a good eight years, although I'm sure there must be older usages out there somewhere.
In a 2001 Usenet post to the alt.fashion newsgroup, user Michele317 says:
on a fashion note, he's
refusing to wear what the vet calls an 'elizabethan collar' and what i call
'the cone of shame': that plastic lampshade thing. i took him to the vet
yesterday and found out his runny eye was due to a tiny scratch in his cornea.
i decorated the cone with stickers, and removed the gauze tie and replaced it
with a jaunty ribbon, but all to no avail.
and a massive thanks to everyone who told me dog accessory websites... so much
cute stuff out there!
answered Nov 16 '18 at 17:07
shoovershoover
1,386918
add a comment |
I found a reference that predates the Up movie by a good eight years, although I'm sure there must be older usages out there somewhere.
In a 2001 Usenet post to the alt.fashion newsgroup, user Michele317 says:
on a fashion note, he's
refusing to wear what the vet calls an 'elizabethan collar' and what i call
'the cone of shame': that plastic lampshade thing. i took him to the vet
yesterday and found out his runny eye was due to a tiny scratch in his cornea.
i decorated the cone with stickers, and removed the gauze tie and replaced it
with a jaunty ribbon, but all to no avail.
and a massive thanks to everyone who told me dog accessory websites... so much
cute stuff out there!
answered Nov 16 '18 at 17:07
shoovershoover
1,386918
I found a reference that predates the Up movie by a good eight years, although I'm sure there must be older usages out there somewhere.
In a 2001 Usenet post to the alt.fashion newsgroup, user Michele317 says:
on a fashion note, he's
refusing to wear what the vet calls an 'elizabethan collar' and what i call
'the cone of shame': that plastic lampshade thing. i took him to the vet
yesterday and found out his runny eye was due to a tiny scratch in his cornea.
i decorated the cone with stickers, and removed the gauze tie and replaced it
with a jaunty ribbon, but all to no avail.
and a massive thanks to everyone who told me dog accessory websites... so much
cute stuff out there!
answered Nov 16 '18 at 17:07
shoovershoover
1,386918
answered Nov 16 '18 at 17:07
shoovershoover
1,386918
answered Nov 16 '18 at 17:07
shoovershoover
1,386918
answered Nov 16 '18 at 17:07
shoovershoover
1,386918
1,386918
add a comment |
add a comment |
Cone of shame goes back a ways. Cone of shame is a regional vernacular, which means it's a term not commonly used outside a particular area. I know it had been used around where i live since the 90s. These terms can go national or international through proper exposure though and they stop being regional and become common slang. CoS is similar to Trash Panda which wasn't widely used until recently, TP became popular because of the internet though where as CoS was made popular because of a movie.
answered Jan 12 at 21:05
Mark GoyetteMark Goyette
111
6
This answer would be far more useful if the particular area was identified.
– Andrew Leach♦
Jan 12 at 21:22
add a comment |
Cone of shame goes back a ways. Cone of shame is a regional vernacular, which means it's a term not commonly used outside a particular area. I know it had been used around where i live since the 90s. These terms can go national or international through proper exposure though and they stop being regional and become common slang. CoS is similar to Trash Panda which wasn't widely used until recently, TP became popular because of the internet though where as CoS was made popular because of a movie.
answered Jan 12 at 21:05
Mark GoyetteMark Goyette
111
6
This answer would be far more useful if the particular area was identified.
– Andrew Leach♦
Jan 12 at 21:22
add a comment |
Cone of shame goes back a ways. Cone of shame is a regional vernacular, which means it's a term not commonly used outside a particular area. I know it had been used around where i live since the 90s. These terms can go national or international through proper exposure though and they stop being regional and become common slang. CoS is similar to Trash Panda which wasn't widely used until recently, TP became popular because of the internet though where as CoS was made popular because of a movie.
answered Jan 12 at 21:05
Mark GoyetteMark Goyette
111
Cone of shame goes back a ways. Cone of shame is a regional vernacular, which means it's a term not commonly used outside a particular area. I know it had been used around where i live since the 90s. These terms can go national or international through proper exposure though and they stop being regional and become common slang. CoS is similar to Trash Panda which wasn't widely used until recently, TP became popular because of the internet though where as CoS was made popular because of a movie.
answered Jan 12 at 21:05
Mark GoyetteMark Goyette
111
answered Jan 12 at 21:05
Mark GoyetteMark Goyette
111
answered Jan 12 at 21:05
Mark GoyetteMark Goyette
111
answered Jan 12 at 21:05
Mark GoyetteMark Goyette
111
111
6
This answer would be far more useful if the particular area was identified.
– Andrew Leach♦
Jan 12 at 21:22
add a comment |
6
This answer would be far more useful if the particular area was identified.
– Andrew Leach♦
Jan 12 at 21:22
6
6
This answer would be far more useful if the particular area was identified.
– Andrew Leach♦
Jan 12 at 21:22
This answer would be far more useful if the particular area was identified.
– Andrew Leach♦
Jan 12 at 21:22
add a comment |
According to wikipedia and knowyoumeme.com, the term was first used in the movie "up."
Wikipedia:
The 2009 animated film Up coined the colloquial name "cone of shame"
for the collars, which feature as a minor plot point.
And knowyourmeme.com:
The Cone of Shame is a meme that originates from the 2009 Pixar movie
UP. In it, a golden retriever by the name of Dug is placed in a
medical device called an Elizabethian Collar as a punishment by his
pack.
answered Nov 16 '18 at 16:55
drewhartdrewhart
2,900717
Yep, I was remembering it from a movie, and "Up" was likely the one. (And, of course, "cone of silence" comes from the TV show "Get Smart".)
– Hot Licks
Nov 16 '18 at 16:57
The Wikipedia reference is no longer correct, as that particular sentence was deleted from the page the same day this answer was posted due to its inaccuracy.
– Chappo
Jan 12 at 21:48
add a comment |
According to wikipedia and knowyoumeme.com, the term was first used in the movie "up."
Wikipedia:
The 2009 animated film Up coined the colloquial name "cone of shame"
for the collars, which feature as a minor plot point.
And knowyourmeme.com:
The Cone of Shame is a meme that originates from the 2009 Pixar movie
UP. In it, a golden retriever by the name of Dug is placed in a
medical device called an Elizabethian Collar as a punishment by his
pack.
answered Nov 16 '18 at 16:55
drewhartdrewhart
2,900717
Yep, I was remembering it from a movie, and "Up" was likely the one. (And, of course, "cone of silence" comes from the TV show "Get Smart".)
– Hot Licks
Nov 16 '18 at 16:57
The Wikipedia reference is no longer correct, as that particular sentence was deleted from the page the same day this answer was posted due to its inaccuracy.
– Chappo
Jan 12 at 21:48
add a comment |
According to wikipedia and knowyoumeme.com, the term was first used in the movie "up."
Wikipedia:
The 2009 animated film Up coined the colloquial name "cone of shame"
for the collars, which feature as a minor plot point.
And knowyourmeme.com:
The Cone of Shame is a meme that originates from the 2009 Pixar movie
UP. In it, a golden retriever by the name of Dug is placed in a
medical device called an Elizabethian Collar as a punishment by his
pack.
answered Nov 16 '18 at 16:55
drewhartdrewhart
2,900717
According to wikipedia and knowyoumeme.com, the term was first used in the movie "up."
Wikipedia:
The 2009 animated film Up coined the colloquial name "cone of shame"
for the collars, which feature as a minor plot point.
And knowyourmeme.com:
The Cone of Shame is a meme that originates from the 2009 Pixar movie
UP. In it, a golden retriever by the name of Dug is placed in a
medical device called an Elizabethian Collar as a punishment by his
pack.
answered Nov 16 '18 at 16:55
drewhartdrewhart
2,900717
answered Nov 16 '18 at 16:55
drewhartdrewhart
2,900717
answered Nov 16 '18 at 16:55
drewhartdrewhart
2,900717
answered Nov 16 '18 at 16:55
drewhartdrewhart
2,900717
2,900717
Yep, I was remembering it from a movie, and "Up" was likely the one. (And, of course, "cone of silence" comes from the TV show "Get Smart".)
– Hot Licks
Nov 16 '18 at 16:57
The Wikipedia reference is no longer correct, as that particular sentence was deleted from the page the same day this answer was posted due to its inaccuracy.
– Chappo
Jan 12 at 21:48
add a comment |
Yep, I was remembering it from a movie, and "Up" was likely the one. (And, of course, "cone of silence" comes from the TV show "Get Smart".)
– Hot Licks
Nov 16 '18 at 16:57
The Wikipedia reference is no longer correct, as that particular sentence was deleted from the page the same day this answer was posted due to its inaccuracy.
– Chappo
Jan 12 at 21:48
Yep, I was remembering it from a movie, and "Up" was likely the one. (And, of course, "cone of silence" comes from the TV show "Get Smart".)
– Hot Licks
Nov 16 '18 at 16:57
Yep, I was remembering it from a movie, and "Up" was likely the one. (And, of course, "cone of silence" comes from the TV show "Get Smart".)
– Hot Licks
Nov 16 '18 at 16:57
The Wikipedia reference is no longer correct, as that particular sentence was deleted from the page the same day this answer was posted due to its inaccuracy.
– Chappo
Jan 12 at 21:48
The Wikipedia reference is no longer correct, as that particular sentence was deleted from the page the same day this answer was posted due to its inaccuracy.
– Chappo
Jan 12 at 21:48
add a comment |
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Not just for dogs BTW, almost any mammal might wear one. One of my cats has had to wear one on three occasions, and I've seen them on rabbits, guinea pigs, and ferrets too (though it doesn't work very well for ferrets).
– Austin Hemmelgarn
Nov 16 '18 at 18:44
@DanBron et al.: Thank you for your effort. Please avoid discussion, debate, or giving answers in comments. The comment thread is reserved for helping to improve the post: friendly clarifying questions, suggestions for improving the question, relevant but transient information, and explanations of your actions. A welcoming place for discussion of posts (or anything else) is our English Language & Usage Chat.
– MetaEd♦
Nov 17 '18 at 18:16
1
@MetaEd No problem deleting comments. And I know you were only CVer #5, but could you and the other CVers consider the "research" requirement for this particular Q? Because looking up early attestations is a specialist task, and outside of including "I found this in Up! in 2009!", which doesn't answer the Q, Id on't know what other research we could have expected of the OP.
– Dan Bron
Nov 17 '18 at 18:18
1
@DanBron I take your point. SE requires that the asker make a substantial effort to find an answer and share the results. As you point out, sometimes that's going to be a fruitless effort. But a big part of the rationale is to weed out questions that are "just mindless social fun", also expressed in the help center as "you should only ask practical, answerable questions based on actual problems that you face." A substantial research effort is helpful to people trying to answer the question, but it's also a practical demonstration that the asker is committed to the question.
– MetaEd♦
Nov 17 '18 at 18:34
1
@DanBron In this question I don't even see that the asker tried a Google search and reported the results. Surely we can reasonably expect that much prior effort.
– MetaEd♦
Nov 17 '18 at 18:35