Are Jordan “Formable” matrices closed under multiplication?












5












$begingroup$


After learning about Jordan Canonical Form, I began thinking about if you have two matrices $A, B in M_n(mathbb{R}),$ whether or not their product $AB$ will also have a Jordan Canonical Form. Trivially, if we consider polynomials in $ M_n(mathbb{C})$ then our polynomial will always have roots in the field. So, from what I understand, this is equivalent to asking whether or not the characteristic polynomial of $AB$ will have real roots.



I began playing around with the $2 times 2$ case and if we have that $AB$ has a negative determinant then we can't have that the eigenvalues of $AB$ are in $mathbb{C},$ since they must multiply to the determinant, but since the complex eigenvalues always come in a conjugate pair, that would mean that their product is always positive. I am not sure how I can break down the case if the determinant is positive.



Finally, my own intuition says matrices which have Jordan form will be closed under multiplication. This is because if we think about what matrices with strictly, real eigenvalues do, they simply reflect and stretch space. So I don't believe it is possible to find two matrices whose product matrix will be a rotation in the plane.



Also, I couldn't find this question asked elsewhere, but if it has an answer, I'd be happy to read it.










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$endgroup$








  • 3




    $begingroup$
    Consider 2 different reflections. Each of them has eigenvalues 1 and -1. However, their composition is a rotation with complex eigenvalues.
    $endgroup$
    – Klaas van Aarsen
    Nov 15 '18 at 22:33






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    @IlikeSerena That's a particularly nice way to resolve the question---would you consider promoting your comment to an answer?
    $endgroup$
    – Travis
    Nov 16 '18 at 0:13






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Thank you @Travis. Done.
    $endgroup$
    – Klaas van Aarsen
    Nov 16 '18 at 0:20
















5












$begingroup$


After learning about Jordan Canonical Form, I began thinking about if you have two matrices $A, B in M_n(mathbb{R}),$ whether or not their product $AB$ will also have a Jordan Canonical Form. Trivially, if we consider polynomials in $ M_n(mathbb{C})$ then our polynomial will always have roots in the field. So, from what I understand, this is equivalent to asking whether or not the characteristic polynomial of $AB$ will have real roots.



I began playing around with the $2 times 2$ case and if we have that $AB$ has a negative determinant then we can't have that the eigenvalues of $AB$ are in $mathbb{C},$ since they must multiply to the determinant, but since the complex eigenvalues always come in a conjugate pair, that would mean that their product is always positive. I am not sure how I can break down the case if the determinant is positive.



Finally, my own intuition says matrices which have Jordan form will be closed under multiplication. This is because if we think about what matrices with strictly, real eigenvalues do, they simply reflect and stretch space. So I don't believe it is possible to find two matrices whose product matrix will be a rotation in the plane.



Also, I couldn't find this question asked elsewhere, but if it has an answer, I'd be happy to read it.










share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$








  • 3




    $begingroup$
    Consider 2 different reflections. Each of them has eigenvalues 1 and -1. However, their composition is a rotation with complex eigenvalues.
    $endgroup$
    – Klaas van Aarsen
    Nov 15 '18 at 22:33






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    @IlikeSerena That's a particularly nice way to resolve the question---would you consider promoting your comment to an answer?
    $endgroup$
    – Travis
    Nov 16 '18 at 0:13






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Thank you @Travis. Done.
    $endgroup$
    – Klaas van Aarsen
    Nov 16 '18 at 0:20














5












5








5


1



$begingroup$


After learning about Jordan Canonical Form, I began thinking about if you have two matrices $A, B in M_n(mathbb{R}),$ whether or not their product $AB$ will also have a Jordan Canonical Form. Trivially, if we consider polynomials in $ M_n(mathbb{C})$ then our polynomial will always have roots in the field. So, from what I understand, this is equivalent to asking whether or not the characteristic polynomial of $AB$ will have real roots.



I began playing around with the $2 times 2$ case and if we have that $AB$ has a negative determinant then we can't have that the eigenvalues of $AB$ are in $mathbb{C},$ since they must multiply to the determinant, but since the complex eigenvalues always come in a conjugate pair, that would mean that their product is always positive. I am not sure how I can break down the case if the determinant is positive.



Finally, my own intuition says matrices which have Jordan form will be closed under multiplication. This is because if we think about what matrices with strictly, real eigenvalues do, they simply reflect and stretch space. So I don't believe it is possible to find two matrices whose product matrix will be a rotation in the plane.



Also, I couldn't find this question asked elsewhere, but if it has an answer, I'd be happy to read it.










share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$




After learning about Jordan Canonical Form, I began thinking about if you have two matrices $A, B in M_n(mathbb{R}),$ whether or not their product $AB$ will also have a Jordan Canonical Form. Trivially, if we consider polynomials in $ M_n(mathbb{C})$ then our polynomial will always have roots in the field. So, from what I understand, this is equivalent to asking whether or not the characteristic polynomial of $AB$ will have real roots.



I began playing around with the $2 times 2$ case and if we have that $AB$ has a negative determinant then we can't have that the eigenvalues of $AB$ are in $mathbb{C},$ since they must multiply to the determinant, but since the complex eigenvalues always come in a conjugate pair, that would mean that their product is always positive. I am not sure how I can break down the case if the determinant is positive.



Finally, my own intuition says matrices which have Jordan form will be closed under multiplication. This is because if we think about what matrices with strictly, real eigenvalues do, they simply reflect and stretch space. So I don't believe it is possible to find two matrices whose product matrix will be a rotation in the plane.



Also, I couldn't find this question asked elsewhere, but if it has an answer, I'd be happy to read it.







linear-algebra abstract-algebra






share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question











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asked Nov 15 '18 at 21:00









JosabanksJosabanks

1157




1157








  • 3




    $begingroup$
    Consider 2 different reflections. Each of them has eigenvalues 1 and -1. However, their composition is a rotation with complex eigenvalues.
    $endgroup$
    – Klaas van Aarsen
    Nov 15 '18 at 22:33






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    @IlikeSerena That's a particularly nice way to resolve the question---would you consider promoting your comment to an answer?
    $endgroup$
    – Travis
    Nov 16 '18 at 0:13






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Thank you @Travis. Done.
    $endgroup$
    – Klaas van Aarsen
    Nov 16 '18 at 0:20














  • 3




    $begingroup$
    Consider 2 different reflections. Each of them has eigenvalues 1 and -1. However, their composition is a rotation with complex eigenvalues.
    $endgroup$
    – Klaas van Aarsen
    Nov 15 '18 at 22:33






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    @IlikeSerena That's a particularly nice way to resolve the question---would you consider promoting your comment to an answer?
    $endgroup$
    – Travis
    Nov 16 '18 at 0:13






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Thank you @Travis. Done.
    $endgroup$
    – Klaas van Aarsen
    Nov 16 '18 at 0:20








3




3




$begingroup$
Consider 2 different reflections. Each of them has eigenvalues 1 and -1. However, their composition is a rotation with complex eigenvalues.
$endgroup$
– Klaas van Aarsen
Nov 15 '18 at 22:33




$begingroup$
Consider 2 different reflections. Each of them has eigenvalues 1 and -1. However, their composition is a rotation with complex eigenvalues.
$endgroup$
– Klaas van Aarsen
Nov 15 '18 at 22:33




2




2




$begingroup$
@IlikeSerena That's a particularly nice way to resolve the question---would you consider promoting your comment to an answer?
$endgroup$
– Travis
Nov 16 '18 at 0:13




$begingroup$
@IlikeSerena That's a particularly nice way to resolve the question---would you consider promoting your comment to an answer?
$endgroup$
– Travis
Nov 16 '18 at 0:13




2




2




$begingroup$
Thank you @Travis. Done.
$endgroup$
– Klaas van Aarsen
Nov 16 '18 at 0:20




$begingroup$
Thank you @Travis. Done.
$endgroup$
– Klaas van Aarsen
Nov 16 '18 at 0:20










3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes


















6












$begingroup$

This is false already in the $2 times 2$ case. Consider the matrices



$$A = left[ begin{array}{cc} -1 & 2 \ -2 & 3 end{array} right], B = left[ begin{array}{cc} 3 & 0 \ 0 & 1 end{array} right]$$



$B$ has eigenvalues $3, 1$, and the characteristic polynomial of $A$ is $t^2 - 2t + 1 = (t - 1)^2$, so $A$ has eigenvalues $1, 1$. But



$$AB = left[ begin{array}{cc} -3 & 2 \ -6 & 3 end{array} right]$$



has characteristic polynomial $t^2 + 3$, so has eigenvalues $pm i sqrt{3}$.



I found these matrices by first taking $B$ to be diagonal with diagonal entries $s, 1$ and then looked at the effect multiplication by $B$ had on the characteristic polynomial of a generic $A$. It's possible to choose $s$ so that $AB$ has trace zero, so then we just need its determinant to be positive to guarantee that it has complex eigenvalues.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$





















    7












    $begingroup$

    Consider 2 reflections. Each of them has eigenvalues 1 and -1. However, their composition is generally a rotation with complex eigenvalues.



    So the product $AB$ of two real matrices $A$ and $B$ with Jordan Canonical Forms does not necessarily have a Jordan Canonical Form as well.






    share|cite|improve this answer











    $endgroup$









    • 1




      $begingroup$
      Well, in the generic case, yes - or more precisely, when the lines of reflection aren't coincident or perpendicular. For example, the reflections about the $x$-axis and $y$-axis compose to rotation by $pi$, or $-I$ which is diagonal.
      $endgroup$
      – Daniel Schepler
      Nov 16 '18 at 1:35










    • $begingroup$
      I've clarified that it's 'generally'.
      $endgroup$
      – Klaas van Aarsen
      Nov 16 '18 at 10:28



















    5












    $begingroup$

    Every square matrix $A$ over any field is similar to its own transpose via a non-singular symmetric matrix $S$ (see Taussky and Zassenhaus, On the similarity transformation between a matrix and its transpose).



    If $A=SA^TS^{-1}$ for a symmetric $S$, then $SA^T=AS=(SA^T)^T$, i.e. $SA^T$ is symmetric. Similarly for $A^TS^{-1}$. Consequently, every square matrix can be written as a product of two symmetric matrices (because $A=(SA^T)S^{-1}=S(A^TS^{-1})$) and one of them can be chosen to be non-singular.



    It follows immediately that the answer to your question is negative unless $n=1$.






    share|cite|improve this answer











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      3 Answers
      3






      active

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      3 Answers
      3






      active

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      active

      oldest

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      active

      oldest

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      6












      $begingroup$

      This is false already in the $2 times 2$ case. Consider the matrices



      $$A = left[ begin{array}{cc} -1 & 2 \ -2 & 3 end{array} right], B = left[ begin{array}{cc} 3 & 0 \ 0 & 1 end{array} right]$$



      $B$ has eigenvalues $3, 1$, and the characteristic polynomial of $A$ is $t^2 - 2t + 1 = (t - 1)^2$, so $A$ has eigenvalues $1, 1$. But



      $$AB = left[ begin{array}{cc} -3 & 2 \ -6 & 3 end{array} right]$$



      has characteristic polynomial $t^2 + 3$, so has eigenvalues $pm i sqrt{3}$.



      I found these matrices by first taking $B$ to be diagonal with diagonal entries $s, 1$ and then looked at the effect multiplication by $B$ had on the characteristic polynomial of a generic $A$. It's possible to choose $s$ so that $AB$ has trace zero, so then we just need its determinant to be positive to guarantee that it has complex eigenvalues.






      share|cite|improve this answer











      $endgroup$


















        6












        $begingroup$

        This is false already in the $2 times 2$ case. Consider the matrices



        $$A = left[ begin{array}{cc} -1 & 2 \ -2 & 3 end{array} right], B = left[ begin{array}{cc} 3 & 0 \ 0 & 1 end{array} right]$$



        $B$ has eigenvalues $3, 1$, and the characteristic polynomial of $A$ is $t^2 - 2t + 1 = (t - 1)^2$, so $A$ has eigenvalues $1, 1$. But



        $$AB = left[ begin{array}{cc} -3 & 2 \ -6 & 3 end{array} right]$$



        has characteristic polynomial $t^2 + 3$, so has eigenvalues $pm i sqrt{3}$.



        I found these matrices by first taking $B$ to be diagonal with diagonal entries $s, 1$ and then looked at the effect multiplication by $B$ had on the characteristic polynomial of a generic $A$. It's possible to choose $s$ so that $AB$ has trace zero, so then we just need its determinant to be positive to guarantee that it has complex eigenvalues.






        share|cite|improve this answer











        $endgroup$
















          6












          6








          6





          $begingroup$

          This is false already in the $2 times 2$ case. Consider the matrices



          $$A = left[ begin{array}{cc} -1 & 2 \ -2 & 3 end{array} right], B = left[ begin{array}{cc} 3 & 0 \ 0 & 1 end{array} right]$$



          $B$ has eigenvalues $3, 1$, and the characteristic polynomial of $A$ is $t^2 - 2t + 1 = (t - 1)^2$, so $A$ has eigenvalues $1, 1$. But



          $$AB = left[ begin{array}{cc} -3 & 2 \ -6 & 3 end{array} right]$$



          has characteristic polynomial $t^2 + 3$, so has eigenvalues $pm i sqrt{3}$.



          I found these matrices by first taking $B$ to be diagonal with diagonal entries $s, 1$ and then looked at the effect multiplication by $B$ had on the characteristic polynomial of a generic $A$. It's possible to choose $s$ so that $AB$ has trace zero, so then we just need its determinant to be positive to guarantee that it has complex eigenvalues.






          share|cite|improve this answer











          $endgroup$



          This is false already in the $2 times 2$ case. Consider the matrices



          $$A = left[ begin{array}{cc} -1 & 2 \ -2 & 3 end{array} right], B = left[ begin{array}{cc} 3 & 0 \ 0 & 1 end{array} right]$$



          $B$ has eigenvalues $3, 1$, and the characteristic polynomial of $A$ is $t^2 - 2t + 1 = (t - 1)^2$, so $A$ has eigenvalues $1, 1$. But



          $$AB = left[ begin{array}{cc} -3 & 2 \ -6 & 3 end{array} right]$$



          has characteristic polynomial $t^2 + 3$, so has eigenvalues $pm i sqrt{3}$.



          I found these matrices by first taking $B$ to be diagonal with diagonal entries $s, 1$ and then looked at the effect multiplication by $B$ had on the characteristic polynomial of a generic $A$. It's possible to choose $s$ so that $AB$ has trace zero, so then we just need its determinant to be positive to guarantee that it has complex eigenvalues.







          share|cite|improve this answer














          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer








          edited Nov 16 '18 at 0:23









          Trevor Gunn

          15k32047




          15k32047










          answered Nov 15 '18 at 22:25









          Qiaochu YuanQiaochu Yuan

          281k32593939




          281k32593939























              7












              $begingroup$

              Consider 2 reflections. Each of them has eigenvalues 1 and -1. However, their composition is generally a rotation with complex eigenvalues.



              So the product $AB$ of two real matrices $A$ and $B$ with Jordan Canonical Forms does not necessarily have a Jordan Canonical Form as well.






              share|cite|improve this answer











              $endgroup$









              • 1




                $begingroup$
                Well, in the generic case, yes - or more precisely, when the lines of reflection aren't coincident or perpendicular. For example, the reflections about the $x$-axis and $y$-axis compose to rotation by $pi$, or $-I$ which is diagonal.
                $endgroup$
                – Daniel Schepler
                Nov 16 '18 at 1:35










              • $begingroup$
                I've clarified that it's 'generally'.
                $endgroup$
                – Klaas van Aarsen
                Nov 16 '18 at 10:28
















              7












              $begingroup$

              Consider 2 reflections. Each of them has eigenvalues 1 and -1. However, their composition is generally a rotation with complex eigenvalues.



              So the product $AB$ of two real matrices $A$ and $B$ with Jordan Canonical Forms does not necessarily have a Jordan Canonical Form as well.






              share|cite|improve this answer











              $endgroup$









              • 1




                $begingroup$
                Well, in the generic case, yes - or more precisely, when the lines of reflection aren't coincident or perpendicular. For example, the reflections about the $x$-axis and $y$-axis compose to rotation by $pi$, or $-I$ which is diagonal.
                $endgroup$
                – Daniel Schepler
                Nov 16 '18 at 1:35










              • $begingroup$
                I've clarified that it's 'generally'.
                $endgroup$
                – Klaas van Aarsen
                Nov 16 '18 at 10:28














              7












              7








              7





              $begingroup$

              Consider 2 reflections. Each of them has eigenvalues 1 and -1. However, their composition is generally a rotation with complex eigenvalues.



              So the product $AB$ of two real matrices $A$ and $B$ with Jordan Canonical Forms does not necessarily have a Jordan Canonical Form as well.






              share|cite|improve this answer











              $endgroup$



              Consider 2 reflections. Each of them has eigenvalues 1 and -1. However, their composition is generally a rotation with complex eigenvalues.



              So the product $AB$ of two real matrices $A$ and $B$ with Jordan Canonical Forms does not necessarily have a Jordan Canonical Form as well.







              share|cite|improve this answer














              share|cite|improve this answer



              share|cite|improve this answer








              edited Nov 16 '18 at 10:27

























              answered Nov 16 '18 at 0:19









              Klaas van AarsenKlaas van Aarsen

              4,3421822




              4,3421822








              • 1




                $begingroup$
                Well, in the generic case, yes - or more precisely, when the lines of reflection aren't coincident or perpendicular. For example, the reflections about the $x$-axis and $y$-axis compose to rotation by $pi$, or $-I$ which is diagonal.
                $endgroup$
                – Daniel Schepler
                Nov 16 '18 at 1:35










              • $begingroup$
                I've clarified that it's 'generally'.
                $endgroup$
                – Klaas van Aarsen
                Nov 16 '18 at 10:28














              • 1




                $begingroup$
                Well, in the generic case, yes - or more precisely, when the lines of reflection aren't coincident or perpendicular. For example, the reflections about the $x$-axis and $y$-axis compose to rotation by $pi$, or $-I$ which is diagonal.
                $endgroup$
                – Daniel Schepler
                Nov 16 '18 at 1:35










              • $begingroup$
                I've clarified that it's 'generally'.
                $endgroup$
                – Klaas van Aarsen
                Nov 16 '18 at 10:28








              1




              1




              $begingroup$
              Well, in the generic case, yes - or more precisely, when the lines of reflection aren't coincident or perpendicular. For example, the reflections about the $x$-axis and $y$-axis compose to rotation by $pi$, or $-I$ which is diagonal.
              $endgroup$
              – Daniel Schepler
              Nov 16 '18 at 1:35




              $begingroup$
              Well, in the generic case, yes - or more precisely, when the lines of reflection aren't coincident or perpendicular. For example, the reflections about the $x$-axis and $y$-axis compose to rotation by $pi$, or $-I$ which is diagonal.
              $endgroup$
              – Daniel Schepler
              Nov 16 '18 at 1:35












              $begingroup$
              I've clarified that it's 'generally'.
              $endgroup$
              – Klaas van Aarsen
              Nov 16 '18 at 10:28




              $begingroup$
              I've clarified that it's 'generally'.
              $endgroup$
              – Klaas van Aarsen
              Nov 16 '18 at 10:28











              5












              $begingroup$

              Every square matrix $A$ over any field is similar to its own transpose via a non-singular symmetric matrix $S$ (see Taussky and Zassenhaus, On the similarity transformation between a matrix and its transpose).



              If $A=SA^TS^{-1}$ for a symmetric $S$, then $SA^T=AS=(SA^T)^T$, i.e. $SA^T$ is symmetric. Similarly for $A^TS^{-1}$. Consequently, every square matrix can be written as a product of two symmetric matrices (because $A=(SA^T)S^{-1}=S(A^TS^{-1})$) and one of them can be chosen to be non-singular.



              It follows immediately that the answer to your question is negative unless $n=1$.






              share|cite|improve this answer











              $endgroup$


















                5












                $begingroup$

                Every square matrix $A$ over any field is similar to its own transpose via a non-singular symmetric matrix $S$ (see Taussky and Zassenhaus, On the similarity transformation between a matrix and its transpose).



                If $A=SA^TS^{-1}$ for a symmetric $S$, then $SA^T=AS=(SA^T)^T$, i.e. $SA^T$ is symmetric. Similarly for $A^TS^{-1}$. Consequently, every square matrix can be written as a product of two symmetric matrices (because $A=(SA^T)S^{-1}=S(A^TS^{-1})$) and one of them can be chosen to be non-singular.



                It follows immediately that the answer to your question is negative unless $n=1$.






                share|cite|improve this answer











                $endgroup$
















                  5












                  5








                  5





                  $begingroup$

                  Every square matrix $A$ over any field is similar to its own transpose via a non-singular symmetric matrix $S$ (see Taussky and Zassenhaus, On the similarity transformation between a matrix and its transpose).



                  If $A=SA^TS^{-1}$ for a symmetric $S$, then $SA^T=AS=(SA^T)^T$, i.e. $SA^T$ is symmetric. Similarly for $A^TS^{-1}$. Consequently, every square matrix can be written as a product of two symmetric matrices (because $A=(SA^T)S^{-1}=S(A^TS^{-1})$) and one of them can be chosen to be non-singular.



                  It follows immediately that the answer to your question is negative unless $n=1$.






                  share|cite|improve this answer











                  $endgroup$



                  Every square matrix $A$ over any field is similar to its own transpose via a non-singular symmetric matrix $S$ (see Taussky and Zassenhaus, On the similarity transformation between a matrix and its transpose).



                  If $A=SA^TS^{-1}$ for a symmetric $S$, then $SA^T=AS=(SA^T)^T$, i.e. $SA^T$ is symmetric. Similarly for $A^TS^{-1}$. Consequently, every square matrix can be written as a product of two symmetric matrices (because $A=(SA^T)S^{-1}=S(A^TS^{-1})$) and one of them can be chosen to be non-singular.



                  It follows immediately that the answer to your question is negative unless $n=1$.







                  share|cite|improve this answer














                  share|cite|improve this answer



                  share|cite|improve this answer








                  edited Nov 28 '18 at 15:12

























                  answered Nov 16 '18 at 10:28









                  user1551user1551

                  73.8k566129




                  73.8k566129






























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